Monday, August 18, 2003
CFMX Java-jock jihad
I'm amazed how often I see a total lack of understanding within Java circles of how CFMX fits. ColdFusion remains the only answer to making Java accessible to a mass of non comp-sci web developers who play a deceptively important role in the evolution of the internet. Not to mention the joy that comes from the productivity CFMX offers.
Despite Macromedian efforts, most Java developers fail to see where CFMX fits into their world of programming. Although CFMX patently sits in the Java noosphere, I continue to be amazed by the fanatical desire many clearly intelligent developers have at refusing to even consider if it fits let alone where.
It's not something you can fight head-on, I suspect. So I'm going to start a subtle post-positive campaign highlighting CFMX/Java symbiosis. I've set up a Java category for Daemonite and am syndicating a specific Java oriented feed to JavaBlogs
If you're a Java developer who wants to know more about ColdFusion you might start here:
Posted by modius at 02:28 AM | Permalink
Geoff, same to me.
It's unbelievable hard to convince core J2EE developers of the ease of use of CFMX.
A good way seems to be to show them CFMX 6.1 on full JRun4 and play with the JRun cluster features to run several instances of CFMX on a single machine ("Wow, how did you do that? It's soo easy to build a cluster with JRun...") ;-)
Posted by: Kai on August 18, 2003 06:15 AM
Cold Fusion is great for non-enterprise, one off apps. It isn't great for enterprise level apps that may have to live for years and years.
Some people aren't willing to pay through the nose for something that doesn't offer much over what is already provided in JSP.
Posted by: No one on August 18, 2003 08:43 AM
I'm amazed how often I see a total lack of understanding within ColdFusion circles of how CFMX is unsuitable in enterpise apps.
JRun is going to be a discontinued product. Macromedia never was clear about their support for the Java platform. Many comapnies are migrating their coldfusion webapps to usings a REAL architecture that scales which is good for me as a consultant because I already migrated a major site and know of many others.
Coldfusion is a joke, ease of use is not the only factor when developing enterprise apps.
Posted by: Coldfusion Sucks on August 18, 2003 09:18 AM
Thanks for clearly articulating my point :)
ColdFusion runs on pretty much any J2EE platform. It compiles to Java byte code, it is java byte code. It is a Sun Certified java application. Just take a moment to learn something.
Posted by: Geoff Bowers on August 18, 2003 09:32 AM
As you say Geoff, those posts highlight the problem - and they're both anonymous!
CFMX happily handles 20,000 concurrent sessions on macromedia.com during morning peak traffic - enterprise scale?
It also has great integration with Web Services, JMS, LDAP and Java itself. It's a great RAD tool for building applications that run on the J2EE platform.
Posted by: seancorfield on August 18, 2003 09:59 AM
Yes, I love the technocrats opinion that if something is 'easy to use' it can't be effective. This is just one of the many reasons why the industry remains as a whole is stuck in a rut. Ease of use is entirely the point.
The people against Cold Fusion are probably for Java Server Faces and Struts and other aberrant Java frameworks. A whole lot of what these systems are trying to achieve is already done in CFMX.
That aside, ColdFusion remains one of my favourite languages for WebApps, large and small. The move to Java is exciting because it gives CF access to all of the Java facilities that make it so 'Enterprise'.
That JRun being discontinued is a rumour at this stage, as far as I understand. It actually makes a large degree of sense - Macromedia can run CFMX on any Java app server, so why would they support their own in an already saturated market? They can both license it to vendors as an integrated framework or sell it as an add-on. doesn't make much differnece to the CF development world.
Posted by: Toby Hede on August 18, 2003 10:47 AM
What's so great about j2ee application if you can't get the front-end application to work easily with your j2ee backend? It's like having a sport-car but don't have an effective driver to run it. cfmx-j2ee integration makes a lot of sense. I have been using ColdFusion for four years now. And I've been trying to use other Application server due to the limitation of cfml language itself. With the introduction of cfmx, I believe my search is over. And I encourage any serious developer who is not into ColdFusion to take a good look at cfmx before making any uninformed and uneducated claims.
Posted by: Vui Lo on August 18, 2003 11:36 AM
It's hard to believe that adults are unwilling to use a real name or email address when commenting on people's blogs. Get a backbone and stand up for what you believe - that is unless you actually are scared by the unknown factor. I'd be interested to know what kind of exposure or issues our two anonymous comment owners have had with CFMX and what kind of problems they have encountered.
My friend and I were recently discussing the job market and this weekend there were an average of 3000 positions advertised per job board for java compared with about 30 for Coldfusion (nationwide). My friend explained that it seems counterintuitive to feel pushed out of a market using smart, simple technology to J2EE, which is currently attempting to converge on Colfusion's simplicity with a standardized tag set. This, to me, is like the asp argument "why would I want to write 20 lines of code or use a tool to generate those 20 lines to query a database in ASP when I can write 4 lines in Coldfusion?".
I'm learning Java at the moment to keep my career options open but if I stay in a Coldfusion world, I know it's going to be worthwhile knowledge to leverage. How do you Java programmers feel about learning Coldfusion?(Yes, it does have to be studied to become a guru and I guarantee you will find some advanced topics tough to digest).
Posted by: Adam Howitt on August 18, 2003 10:31 PM
I just want to ditto Adam's comments. If you can't bother to include your real name, you are simply not worth listening to. Shoot, what did you think the author of this blog was going to do - censor you? I think he WANTED a conversation, so if you TRULY feel CF isn't ready for the enterprise, speak up, but have the guts to include your name.
Posted by: Raymond Camden on August 19, 2003 12:22 AM
Someone commented on this blog:
Are CF developers even interested in Java? I know some who think of it as a competitor.
Posted by: Anon on August 19, 2003 07:09 AM
That's exactly the point. Beginners tend not to -- Java is tough to master. Many experienced CF developers use Java *every* day. And in a real world where teams vary in skill -- that's just the way we like it. Our company for one rejoiced when Neo (codename for CF on Java several years back) was announced.
Posted by: Geoff Bowers on August 19, 2003 08:10 AM
That's the same wall I hit when talking to people about WebObjects. IT'S JAVA, PEOPLE. Lets you do some pretty cool things with little or no code, and some freakin' amazing things with the right bits of code (and not writing a line more than is necessary - always a Good Thing.)
Posted by: D'Arcy Norman on August 19, 2003 11:15 AM
So can you run WAR files on webobjects? our company uses webobjects extensively, but at the same time there is another faction that uses straight J2EE.
Posted by: kalimantan on August 19, 2003 02:10 PM
I think the reason you see so little interest in CF from the Java camp is because the historically common "design patterns" in ColdFusion are pretty much the very *antithesis* of what Java developers consider good design. Inlining CFQUERY tags with request processing templates is totally abhorrent to most enterprise Java developers, who believe (correctly or incorrectly) the DB layer should be several layers of abstraction away from the servlet level. Custom tags and CFCs are not a substitute for true OO language support like Java gives you. As far as using CF for business logic, there is just not a lot of common ground for CF and Java developers to stand on, IMO.
It's true, you could use CFMX as a replacement for the presentation layer only, keeping all the business logic locked up behind session beans or regular Java objects. But then, really, what does using CF buy the average Java developer? A verbose tag-based syntax, dynamic typing... these things are not what turns a Java developer on.
And the kicker is that it costs money, while sticking with an all-Java solution--with no interop magic required--is free.
CFMX has its place, but I think there are good reasons why Java developers shy away from it.
Posted by: Joe Cheng on August 20, 2003 09:09 AM
Facts: ColdFusion is the best app for the j2ee presentation tier due to its productivity increases over JSP, Java is the best app for the business tier, integration tier and data tier if you don't want MS platform lockin. They both sit on the same underlying J2EE application server and JVM allowing integration. JSTL is a very poor copy of Coldfusion for the presentation tier and will never compete. PHP is superb for Linux web development and will continue to grow. ASP.NET is probably the best all round but will loose on MS lockin and the move to Linux by enterprises. Take home point? Linux server + J2EE app server + CF makes one very productive and stable solution.
Posted by: AlexT on January 16, 2004 05:15 PM