Friday, December 05, 2003
Fullasagoog: Editorial License
Fullasagoog has been under fire from some quarters with regard to its policies on blog syndication. I’ve taken some time out to explain my position on these things in an effort to address a variety of misconceptions in some areas of the community.
Fullasagoog is an RSS feed aggregator that only syndicates blogs where the content is predominantly about Macromedia and related technologies. It’s an eclectic mix of things from Flash to Flex, from CSS to ColdFusion. People visit the Goog, syndicate the blended feeds or use the web service to immerse themselves in RIA development.
How are blogs chosen for aggregation? Well there is a degree of editorial license involved in syndicating people’s feeds. I find blogs in a variety of ways: referrers, word of mouth, personal requests and so on. Not all blogs go on tap immediately.
Firstly, it’s important that the content is somewhat original – a series of “me too” style postings linking off to other sites just adds noise to the blend. Without trying to be too critical, I really try to assess whether or not an author is posting content of substance that other folk might be interested in reading.
Next I determine if the blog is predominantly about Macromedia or related technologies. This is important. People visit Fullasagoog because it’s a distillation of RIA related feeds – it is this editorial influence that increases the signal to noise ratio and adds value to Fullasagoog.
Unfortunately there is no single lexicon of terms by which to categorize posts. There is the choice of the whole feed or nothing. Regularly I find blogs that I think have great Goog-like content but sadly have too many off-topic posts. In these instances I enquire if the author has a more category specific feed. If they have such a feed I take it, and if not, I make the often hard decision to not include them in the blend.
Essentially it’s not possible to filter out all the “noise” and so we get a feed sprinkled with personal anecdotes, musings and quirky characters. Personally I like this aspect of the Goog – it makes it less dry and adds a more of a community feel. However, it’s twin edge sword – in order to stay relevant the Goog has to keep non-technical posts to a minimum.
From time to time I will temporarily suspend a feed from the blend. Typcially this is done for one of two reasons:
- The blog feed is invalid or is breaking the Fullasagoog interface. Normally in this instance I will work with the author to try and resolve the issue. Or I might write an extra bit of code to compensate for the error. When the feed is valid I reinstate the blog.
- A blog post that is off topic is deemed offensive. This is perhaps the more controversial aspect of my intervention and certainly has caused a storm in a tea cup in recent days. Typically in this instance I will suspend the feed until such time as the post drops off the front page and then reinstate it.
How do I determine if a post is “offensive”? If I receive complaints from readers that they find a certain post inappropriate I will review the post and make a determination. If the post is a) off topic and b) genuinely controversial, I temporarily suspend the feed. To be honest it’s a bit of pain to have to intervene at all but I do so in the interests of a more harmonious community.
Is this a challenge to free speech? I hardly think so. Fullasagoog is about RIA development and is not a pulpit for deliberately broadcasting off-topic. As for controversy about Macromedia technology and RIA development -- that is what Fullasagoog is all about!
Posted by modius at 06:17 PM | Permalink
Trackback: http://blog.daemon.com.au/cgi-bin/dmblog/mt-tb.cgi/188
You have to admit that some of the blogs that post "political" hot-topics in a Macromedia style blog are just milking the traffic for ill-gains.
One such topic was that Happy Genocide post Aral made? I found that annoying as its the typical response i would expect to find an anti-american protester (always looking for a way to dog the US over some hot topic).
Point being is, I don't give a shit, I like FullAsAGoog for the RIA mix-in, whether it be technologically pure MM or some other facet that involves MM in some way (nice mixture of a blend) - Anti-US shit, has no purpose in Goog imho.
I back your play 100% Geoff, your a fairly diplomatic guy, who has the patience of a saint (both through your sucess of running CFAUSSIE and GOOG).
The odd political hot-spot (ie i'm no saint, i once posted a pissed of vent about an Australian IT Minister who's and old bastard who wouldn't know the Internet from a fishing Net) but it wasn't as radically left-wing and it was still ontopic as it was IT based and does affect Macromedian developers (broadband etc). So i'm all for a healthy debate, but keep Goog pure i guess? maybe if we could adhere to a category system for Goog? ie we setup a specific RSS/XML feed for you that can cut down the noise ?? I dunno..
Anyway, Go Geoff!
Posted by: Scott Barnes on December 5, 2003 07:33 PM
From reviewing the MXNA code and reading FullAsAGoog.com as well, I think you could benefit from a message/post level admin page. Add an "active" bit field to the post which allows you to disable viewing of that post.
To take it a step further, you might even want to grab certain feeds that sometimes have excellent content but always want to review each post before making them live. So then the blog table would need a "requiresapproval" bit and the post would need an "approved" bit (auto set to 1 if approval is not required.
It's entirely in your right to decide what content you want show. It doesn't even have to be politically motivated if they are simply off topic. What makes fullasagoog a "BLOG aggregator" versus an "aggregator of RIA and web-dev information"?
If I want world news, I'll go to a credible source, however inherently biased it may be.
Posted by: Doug Gibson on December 6, 2003 12:42 AM
I think da Good is an MM one vs. news as I don't post something if I know 50 million other of my fellow devs will post the same thing, different title.
I try to even tailor my subject lines to have the desire to click AND that once clicked, add a perspective or information not covered in the Goog. Additionally, I time my posts to doge the morning rush, the Aussie additions, and the JD floods so I have some staying time.
All of this is done in the interest of placing myself in a unique area of RIA information distribution. Dang right I'm biased, but I do it since I choose da Good as my main source of syndication & exposure. I only post "news" stuff if I think it's relevant.
Posted by: JesterXL on December 6, 2003 01:20 AM
Geoff, I believe what you have in Fullasagoog is the truest insight we can have into the developing future of the world we all work and hopefully play in. No doubt FAAG is MM centric but MM are way out ahead IMHO. The future is our Oyster, thanks.
Posted by: Mike Brunt on December 6, 2003 06:03 AM
Geoff, thanks for running the service, and putting up with all us blunderheads. :)
Actually, on a similar note, I have to ask why you included BlueDragon in the mix today? I don't have anything against them, but it seems odd to include a product sales blog in the aggregator. I suppose if they diversify their posts it makes sense, but right now it's just marketing. Just curious.
Cheers.
Posted by: Grant Skinner on December 6, 2003 12:55 PM
Geoff, Fullasagoog is a great aggregator service and if you choose to execute your editorial rights on certain posts that is certainly your prerogative.
My suggestions to deal with posts deemed offensive would be to put the title of the post in there, not make it clickable and put an "editorial discretion" image next to it. People can still go over to the blog and read it themselves if they are interested.
The problem I personally have with filtering posts and removing them completely is that this doesn't give people an accurate view of what a site is all about and can take certain posts completely out of context.
Do keep up the good work, I'm sure the community is greatful with all you do :)
Posted by: Peter Elst on December 6, 2003 11:23 PM
Charlie Arehart's blog has been syndicated in the Goog since the beginning of time it seems. His recent Bluedragon posts are probably aimed at clarifying the release of Bludragon 6.1 (which is a significant milestone) and the arrival of a new CF engine of sorts, Coral. Admittedly they're a tad sales oriented but Charlie's contribution to the CF community gives him considerable lattitude.
Like I said I'd really prefer not to intervene unless things are off topic and controversial to the point of upsetting people. This doesn't appear to be one of those occaisions.
Posted by: Geoff Bowers on December 7, 2003 12:40 AM
I'm not sure folks are reading my post all that accurately -- the only "editorial discretion" I make is to *temporarily* suspend a feed. The system doesn't have the option of screening/deleting individual posts.
Posted by: Geoff Bowers on December 7, 2003 12:42 AM
Sorry Geoff didn't explain myself very well there. I'm aware you just suspend feeds, my suggestion was just intended in case you ever plan on implementing a system to allows for screening individual posts.
Posted by: Peter Elst on December 7, 2003 01:48 AM
Hi Geoff,
First off, thanks for posting this. It's encouraging to see discussion on this topic. I realize that it was my post on Thanksgiving that started off this whole discussion.
To clarify my position, I do not mind at all if you choose not to display off-topic posts. In fact, I agree fully that that should be the case. After all, you are aggregating MM-related stuff.
What I have a problem with is that the rules are not being applied equally to all concerned.
As you know, only the posts in the Flash category of onRelease are being aggregated. This is fine.
However, on other blogs such as Eric's, all posts are being aggregated. This leads to Eric being able to express his views in a certain public space (fullasagoog) while I cannot.
It also happens that it is all right to express certain political views and not others. In fact, certain pro-Christian, pro-War, pro-Middle-class-white-America views are not even challenged.
This is very dangerous.
All I ask is that the rules be applied equally to all. Why not have each blog that is eclectic in content have categories?
Furthermore, regarding that specific incident -- it is sad that those who complained would rather not think about/not see/forget about the Native American genocide.
Someone here mentioned that I was anti-American for mentioning it? I guess we should not mention the Jewish Halacaust either, for fear of being labelled Anti-German?
Before I stray too far: If I were to write up a post along the lines of "God Bless America! I want to give thanks for all the good that America is doing around the world. Even if you don't celebrate Thanksgiving, you should do this/that..." then I would not get suspended.
Why not?
Posted by: aral on December 7, 2003 07:20 AM
Of all things, I go and misspell "holocaust" -- oh, boy!
Posted by: aral on December 7, 2003 07:22 AM
I'd like to chime in as well on this. Of course, like everyone else, I can't say enough thanks to Geoff on the work of providing this aggregator. It's the default start page in my browser, and I read it daily.
That said, I also appreciate the challenge faced in aggregating all the blogs he does: he can't know when someone may post something in their blog that could offend another. If he tries to censor it, it's a very slippery slope he then faces.
I know most of the discussion centers on political, racial, and other social concerns. But one technical aspect of this has also come up. Grant asked why Geoff aggregated my BlueDragon blog, and Goeff answered with a moderated reply that I'm flattered by. Thanks for your kind words, Geoff.
But to those like Grant who may not like seeing the BlueDragon posts due to their sales-ish nature, I hope you'll look beyond the last 3 posts. Nearly all the others since I started it in June of this year have not been marketing oriented at all. Indeed, some have been generic to both CF and BlueDragon.
This really points up another interesting facet of blog aggregation: even if you might like 95% of what a blogger would post, it's always possible that they may blog an entry someday that you disagree with. It's your own judgement whether to read that blogger's posts then, but somehow on an aggregator that brings all the blog's posts front and center, this "freedom of choice" feels lost to the offended.
There's really not much that can be done. I mean, one can ask and perhaps even expect that the owner of a technical blog not raise political or social issues, I suppose. That's treading on their freedom of speech, of course.
But I really want to say that with respect to the BueDragon blog, while I do nearly always try to post technical stuff only, the fact is that I am also often using it as a place to post answers to frequently asked questions. Some of those will be of a sales/marketing nature.
The BlueDragon blog is the blog for the company New Atlanta, in its efforts to promote BlueDragon. Since BlueDragon IS about CFML, it will inevitably be of interest to many, and sometimes to all CFML developers. There's also the chance that on occasion a post may not interest all users, or may even offend those who haven't accepted the reality of alternatives for processing CFML apps. I can't, in every post, know who will read it.
But certainly in the BlueDragon blog I've got to have the freedom to say what needs to be said about BlueDragon. I love that it's aggregated here, for sure, just as I love FullasaGoog for all the other stuff that's aggregated. It's like so many things in life: one has to learn to accept that things aren't perfect, and like i said above, if something gives you what you want 95% of the time, isn't that good enough to stick with it?
It's also like discussions on mailing lists that go off-topic for a while. Sure, they frustrate many but not all. One has to learn to live with the attempts to bring order to chaos. :-)
Posted by: Charlie Arehart on December 9, 2003 09:00 AM
First of all like many others have done already, I have to thank you for taking the time to create such a useful service.
Here's one idea that I'll throw up in the air, that may make things easier for you to manage.
You already have the hide feature that hides an entire feed. Perhaps you could add a button to block a post, and if a certain number of people click on it you could be notified, and then take action or possibly have it automatically remove the post (that could be giving the reader too much power). If nothing else that would at least give you some insight as to what kinds of posts people feel are offensive, or which feeds are frequently off topic. Just a thought...
Personally though "off topic" posts don't really bother me all that much.
Posted by: Pete Freitag on December 10, 2003 05:24 PM
You have to admit that some of the blogs that post "political" hot-topics in a Macromedia style blog are just milking the traffic for ill-gains.
One such topic was that Happy Genocide post Aral made? I found that annoying as its the typical response i would expect to find an anti-american protester (always looking for a way to dog the US over some hot topic).
Point being is, I don't give a shit, I like FullAsAGoog for the RIA mix-in, whether it be technologically pure MM or some other facet that involves MM in some way (nice mixture of a blend) - Anti-US shit, has no purpose in Goog imho.
I back your play 100% Geoff, your a fairly diplomatic guy, who has the patience of a saint (both through your sucess of running CFAUSSIE and GOOG).
The odd political hot-spot (ie i'm no saint, i once posted a pissed of vent about an Australian IT Minister who's and old bastard who wouldn't know the Internet from a fishing Net) but it wasn't as radically left-wing and it was still ontopic as it was IT based and does affect Macromedian developers (broadband etc). So i'm all for a healthy debate, but keep Goog pure i guess? maybe if we could adhere to a category system for Goog? ie we setup a specific RSS/XML feed for you that can cut down the noise ?? I dunno..
Anyway, Go Geoff!
Posted by: Scott Barnes on December 5, 2003 07:33 PM
From reviewing the MXNA code and reading FullAsAGoog.com as well, I think you could benefit from a message/post level admin page. Add an "active" bit field to the post which allows you to disable viewing of that post.
To take it a step further, you might even want to grab certain feeds that sometimes have excellent content but always want to review each post before making them live. So then the blog table would need a "requiresapproval" bit and the post would need an "approved" bit (auto set to 1 if approval is not required.
It's entirely in your right to decide what content you want show. It doesn't even have to be politically motivated if they are simply off topic. What makes fullasagoog a "BLOG aggregator" versus an "aggregator of RIA and web-dev information"?
If I want world news, I'll go to a credible source, however inherently biased it may be.
Posted by: Doug Gibson on December 6, 2003 12:42 AM
I think da Good is an MM one vs. news as I don't post something if I know 50 million other of my fellow devs will post the same thing, different title.
I try to even tailor my subject lines to have the desire to click AND that once clicked, add a perspective or information not covered in the Goog. Additionally, I time my posts to doge the morning rush, the Aussie additions, and the JD floods so I have some staying time.
All of this is done in the interest of placing myself in a unique area of RIA information distribution. Dang right I'm biased, but I do it since I choose da Good as my main source of syndication & exposure. I only post "news" stuff if I think it's relevant.
Posted by: JesterXL on December 6, 2003 01:20 AM
Geoff, I believe what you have in Fullasagoog is the truest insight we can have into the developing future of the world we all work and hopefully play in. No doubt FAAG is MM centric but MM are way out ahead IMHO. The future is our Oyster, thanks.
Posted by: Mike Brunt on December 6, 2003 06:03 AM
Geoff, thanks for running the service, and putting up with all us blunderheads. :)
Actually, on a similar note, I have to ask why you included BlueDragon in the mix today? I don't have anything against them, but it seems odd to include a product sales blog in the aggregator. I suppose if they diversify their posts it makes sense, but right now it's just marketing. Just curious.
Cheers.
Posted by: Grant Skinner on December 6, 2003 12:55 PM
Geoff, Fullasagoog is a great aggregator service and if you choose to execute your editorial rights on certain posts that is certainly your prerogative.
My suggestions to deal with posts deemed offensive would be to put the title of the post in there, not make it clickable and put an "editorial discretion" image next to it. People can still go over to the blog and read it themselves if they are interested.
The problem I personally have with filtering posts and removing them completely is that this doesn't give people an accurate view of what a site is all about and can take certain posts completely out of context.
Do keep up the good work, I'm sure the community is greatful with all you do :)
Posted by: Peter Elst on December 6, 2003 11:23 PM
Charlie Arehart's blog has been syndicated in the Goog since the beginning of time it seems. His recent Bluedragon posts are probably aimed at clarifying the release of Bludragon 6.1 (which is a significant milestone) and the arrival of a new CF engine of sorts, Coral. Admittedly they're a tad sales oriented but Charlie's contribution to the CF community gives him considerable lattitude.
Like I said I'd really prefer not to intervene unless things are off topic and controversial to the point of upsetting people. This doesn't appear to be one of those occaisions.
Posted by: Geoff Bowers on December 7, 2003 12:40 AM
I'm not sure folks are reading my post all that accurately -- the only "editorial discretion" I make is to *temporarily* suspend a feed. The system doesn't have the option of screening/deleting individual posts.
Posted by: Geoff Bowers on December 7, 2003 12:42 AM
Sorry Geoff didn't explain myself very well there. I'm aware you just suspend feeds, my suggestion was just intended in case you ever plan on implementing a system to allows for screening individual posts.
Posted by: Peter Elst on December 7, 2003 01:48 AM
Hi Geoff,
First off, thanks for posting this. It's encouraging to see discussion on this topic. I realize that it was my post on Thanksgiving that started off this whole discussion.
To clarify my position, I do not mind at all if you choose not to display off-topic posts. In fact, I agree fully that that should be the case. After all, you are aggregating MM-related stuff.
What I have a problem with is that the rules are not being applied equally to all concerned.
As you know, only the posts in the Flash category of onRelease are being aggregated. This is fine.
However, on other blogs such as Eric's, all posts are being aggregated. This leads to Eric being able to express his views in a certain public space (fullasagoog) while I cannot.
It also happens that it is all right to express certain political views and not others. In fact, certain pro-Christian, pro-War, pro-Middle-class-white-America views are not even challenged.
This is very dangerous.
All I ask is that the rules be applied equally to all. Why not have each blog that is eclectic in content have categories?
Furthermore, regarding that specific incident -- it is sad that those who complained would rather not think about/not see/forget about the Native American genocide.
Someone here mentioned that I was anti-American for mentioning it? I guess we should not mention the Jewish Halacaust either, for fear of being labelled Anti-German?
Before I stray too far: If I were to write up a post along the lines of "God Bless America! I want to give thanks for all the good that America is doing around the world. Even if you don't celebrate Thanksgiving, you should do this/that..." then I would not get suspended.
Why not?
Posted by: aral on December 7, 2003 07:20 AM
Of all things, I go and misspell "holocaust" -- oh, boy!
Posted by: aral on December 7, 2003 07:22 AM
I'd like to chime in as well on this. Of course, like everyone else, I can't say enough thanks to Geoff on the work of providing this aggregator. It's the default start page in my browser, and I read it daily.
That said, I also appreciate the challenge faced in aggregating all the blogs he does: he can't know when someone may post something in their blog that could offend another. If he tries to censor it, it's a very slippery slope he then faces.
I know most of the discussion centers on political, racial, and other social concerns. But one technical aspect of this has also come up. Grant asked why Geoff aggregated my BlueDragon blog, and Goeff answered with a moderated reply that I'm flattered by. Thanks for your kind words, Geoff.
But to those like Grant who may not like seeing the BlueDragon posts due to their sales-ish nature, I hope you'll look beyond the last 3 posts. Nearly all the others since I started it in June of this year have not been marketing oriented at all. Indeed, some have been generic to both CF and BlueDragon.
This really points up another interesting facet of blog aggregation: even if you might like 95% of what a blogger would post, it's always possible that they may blog an entry someday that you disagree with. It's your own judgement whether to read that blogger's posts then, but somehow on an aggregator that brings all the blog's posts front and center, this "freedom of choice" feels lost to the offended.
There's really not much that can be done. I mean, one can ask and perhaps even expect that the owner of a technical blog not raise political or social issues, I suppose. That's treading on their freedom of speech, of course.
But I really want to say that with respect to the BueDragon blog, while I do nearly always try to post technical stuff only, the fact is that I am also often using it as a place to post answers to frequently asked questions. Some of those will be of a sales/marketing nature.
The BlueDragon blog is the blog for the company New Atlanta, in its efforts to promote BlueDragon. Since BlueDragon IS about CFML, it will inevitably be of interest to many, and sometimes to all CFML developers. There's also the chance that on occasion a post may not interest all users, or may even offend those who haven't accepted the reality of alternatives for processing CFML apps. I can't, in every post, know who will read it.
But certainly in the BlueDragon blog I've got to have the freedom to say what needs to be said about BlueDragon. I love that it's aggregated here, for sure, just as I love FullasaGoog for all the other stuff that's aggregated. It's like so many things in life: one has to learn to accept that things aren't perfect, and like i said above, if something gives you what you want 95% of the time, isn't that good enough to stick with it?
It's also like discussions on mailing lists that go off-topic for a while. Sure, they frustrate many but not all. One has to learn to live with the attempts to bring order to chaos. :-)
Posted by: Charlie Arehart on December 9, 2003 09:00 AM
First of all like many others have done already, I have to thank you for taking the time to create such a useful service.
Here's one idea that I'll throw up in the air, that may make things easier for you to manage.
You already have the hide feature that hides an entire feed. Perhaps you could add a button to block a post, and if a certain number of people click on it you could be notified, and then take action or possibly have it automatically remove the post (that could be giving the reader too much power). If nothing else that would at least give you some insight as to what kinds of posts people feel are offensive, or which feeds are frequently off topic. Just a thought...
Personally though "off topic" posts don't really bother me all that much.
Posted by: Pete Freitag on December 10, 2003 05:24 PM